00:00 advocate holding healthc care
00:02 accountable. This podcast is my way of
00:04 sharing what I've learned about the
00:06 mistakes, the coverups, and the ways we
00:09 can all protect ourselves. We're all in
00:11 this together.
00:15 Hi, and welcome to Advocate, holding
00:18 healthc care accountable. I'm Kay Van
00:20 Way, and I'm so glad you're here. If
00:22 you've heard of me, it might be because
00:24 of my work on the Dr. Death cases. But
00:27 what you might not know is that for over
00:29 40 years, I've been fighting for
00:30 patients and families who've been let
00:32 down by a health care system that's
00:34 supposed to protect them. This podcast
00:37 is my way of sharing what I've learned
00:39 about the mistakes, the coverups, and
00:42 the ways we can all better protect
00:44 ourselves because at the end of the day,
00:46 we're all in this together. Today I'm
00:49 joined by my co-host Kaylee Pere who's
00:52 going to guide us through the podcast uh
00:54 and introduce us to what this is all
00:56 about and why we're doing it.
00:57 I am so excited to be here with you.
01:00 First of all, you're amazing and I do
01:02 think that this podcast is really
01:04 important and what you're going to be
01:06 talking about. So, I can't wait to kind
01:08 of unpack that. But I do think the main
01:10 question, you know, that we're the
01:12 listen listeners or viewers are going to
01:14 want to know is, you know, you've been a
01:16 lawyer for many years, but what made you
01:17 want to be a lawyer? Where did that
01:19 start? Well, it started in high school.
01:22 And it's it's kind of funny because I
01:25 didn't have any lawyers in my family. My
01:27 mother was a ballet teacher and my dad
01:29 was a small businessman in a small town
01:31 in Oklahoma. But um I started out in
01:35 high school as a student council nerd
01:37 and a varsity debater. And um I was
01:42 always the kind of person that I felt
01:45 like a little guy and an outsider. And I
01:48 always was about my fellow little guys
01:51 and my fellow outsiders and I always
01:53 felt that I was longing for a sense of
01:56 justice for other people. So you know
01:60 this just extended. I went to college on
02:02 a leadership scholarship. I ran for the
02:05 student council there and and so on and
02:09 so forth. And then when I got to law
02:11 school, I didn't know a tort from a
02:13 contract from an oil and gas lease and I
02:17 sat in my first year tors class and I
02:19 was like, "Wow, this is it." And then my
02:24 first job became uh I worked for a
02:26 medical malpractice lawyer in Oklahoma
02:28 City and I was like this is absolutely
02:30 what I want to do. If I can ever get
02:32 there, if I can ever do it, that's what
02:34 I want to do.
02:35 And didn't you when you first started, I
02:38 think when we were talking the other
02:39 day, uh you wanted to be in the
02:41 courtroom so bad that you went and
02:43 knocked on doors.
02:44 Oh, yeah.
02:44 Did Did you do that?
02:46 Yes. So, um I'm from Lton, Oklahoma. And
02:49 so when I first moved back, um well, I
02:52 started as a prosecutor and I was in the
02:54 courtroom all the time. And it was kind
02:56 of funny because in a small town there,
02:59 um the part of the trial, the vory, you
03:02 start out and you say, "Does does anyone
03:04 know me?" You know, "Does anyone know my
03:06 client? Does anyone know me?" And it was
03:08 really hard to pick a jury there because
03:10 people would raise their hands and say,
03:11 "Oh, your mother taught my daughter
03:13 ballet or you know, your dad sold my son
03:16 a car or my dad a car or something." So,
03:20 it was a very welcoming environment for
03:23 me. But when I went out into private
03:25 practice, I didn't have any clients at
03:28 all. And so, we had a criminal court
03:31 appointment system in Comanche County.
03:34 So, I went around to these older lawyers
03:36 that didn't want those cases. They
03:38 already had an established practice. And
03:40 I'd say, "Just give me your cases. I'll
03:42 do them." And so, that's how I initially
03:44 built my practice. And I was fine with
03:47 it. A felony jury trial paid $500 and a
03:50 misdemeanor jury trial paid $350. So,
03:53 back then, this was in the, you know,
03:55 mid80s, I was great with that. But I was
03:59 literally in the courtroom all the time.
04:01 And that's what I loved. And you said,
04:03 you know, you worked for a medical
04:05 malpractice firm when you first started
04:06 and that's you were like, I have to do
04:08 this. What was it about that that made
04:11 you want to do medical malpractice
04:12 instead of some other
04:15 Well, well, I probably would have loved
04:17 to have been a doctor, but the math and
04:21 sciences weren't my strong suit. So I
04:24 guess this is the next best thing maybe
04:27 because you get to learn the medicine,
04:30 study the medicine, understand the
04:33 health care system, and then you know
04:35 the witnesses that you're
04:37 cross-examining or presenting or
04:39 whatever, they're medical experts. So in
04:42 order to go toe-to-toe with them, you
04:44 have to be an expert on the law, but you
04:46 have to really dig deep into the
04:48 medicine as well. So, I just think I
04:51 would have probably wanted to gouge my
04:52 eyeballs out if I had sat drafting
04:54 contracts all day for a living. Um,
04:57 there's never no two days are ever the
04:59 same for me.
05:00 Yeah. And I I mean, having to dig deep
05:02 into healthcare and you can't just like
05:04 do the surface like you had to really
05:07 know what you were talking about. So,
05:09 you kind of had to be a doctor per se,
05:12 you know? Well, you know, uh, a witness,
05:15 whether they're a doctor or any other
05:18 kind of witness, they will try to pull
05:19 your leg, and you have to be able to
05:22 know like, is this doctor trying to pull
05:24 one over on me? You have to know enough
05:26 to know when you're getting played. And
05:29 it throughout the course of your career
05:31 because you've been doing this a very
05:32 very long time. Is has there been, you
05:34 know, a situation where, you know, you
05:37 you never expected,
05:40 you know, like a a case or something
05:43 that has stands out to you that was a
05:44 turning point for you, like I've got to
05:46 do more of this to make sure that these
05:48 people are taken care of. Well,
05:51 interestingly,
05:53 everyone thinks of the big tort reform
05:55 in Texas that we had as being 2003, and
05:59 that's when the voters changed uh voted
06:01 to change the Texas Constitution to
06:04 allow special protections for healthc
06:07 care providers. But I was around for the
06:10 first round of T tort reform, which was
06:12 when um our governor was Bush. So,
06:16 that's how long it's been going on. But
06:19 you know, most of the lawyers
06:22 kind of that represented patients, they
06:25 weathered the storm through round one.
06:27 But in 2003, when we got the big bill
06:32 and the big constitution change, the
06:34 overwhelming majority of medical
06:36 malpractice lawyers representing
06:38 patients left to do other things.
06:40 They're like, "Heck, I can't make a
06:42 living doing that. I need to go become a
06:44 business litigator or whatever."
06:46 Interesting. So, I just felt like I
06:51 can't leave because
06:55 somebody has got to continue to do this
06:57 work. I mean, it's very important.
07:00 Sometimes we're the only the only ones
07:04 calling for accountability and holding
07:06 them accountable. So, I would say that
07:09 was really I don't want to say a turning
07:12 point, but that's when I knew like, you
07:15 know, it's the Hotel California. I've
07:17 checked in and I'm never checking out.
07:20 Not going anywhere.
07:21 That's right. And that that's that's a
07:23 big hurdle for you because you have to
07:24 learn a whole different, you know, as
07:27 they change everything, more to learn,
07:29 more to be there for. Are there any
07:31 other big hurdles throughout your career
07:33 that stand out to you that you know
07:36 maybe helped shape this podcast now?
07:41 Well, it reminds me of something that um
07:45 you can't let other people get into your
07:47 head because at various times in my
07:50 career, people have been in my ear
07:53 saying you can't do that or you
07:56 shouldn't do that. But I used to have
07:59 this thing. I don't know what happened
08:01 to it, but it was taped to my computer
08:03 monitor and it said, "Don't look at your
08:05 feet, just dance." And that's kind of
08:09 been one of my things. With the Dutch
08:11 cases, for example, people were like,
08:14 "Sure, everybody knows that DUCH is
08:18 negligent. That's anybody can make that
08:21 malpractice case, but you're never going
08:23 to make the case against the hospitals.
08:25 You're never going to do that." you
08:27 know, when I was trying to hold um drug
08:31 suppliers responsible for uh sell
08:35 basically selling drugs to pain clinics
08:37 and then the pain clinics were doing out
08:40 uh drugs to people that didn't need
08:42 them. People were like, you're never
08:44 going to hold a wholesaler responsible.
08:46 You're never going to go up the food
08:47 chain on that. So, I guess maybe that's
08:51 a problem I have with my personality is
08:53 people shouldn't tell me I challenge
08:55 accepted. Right. I I'm kind of like that
08:59 too. So I understand. I actually prefer
09:00 if you tell me I can't do it because
09:02 there you go.
09:03 Then there you go. Right. But it's a lot
09:05 of work. I mean I mean when I was
09:08 talking to you the other day I How many
09:10 with one case? How many hours are you
09:13 putting into this? Like how do you keep
09:15 going you know when you're up sun up to
09:18 sun down even past that
09:21 right
09:21 to protect people.
09:23 Well it's a great question. and how do
09:25 you keep going? Because, you know, I'm
09:27 no spring chicken anymore. I've been at
09:29 it a minute or two. And uh, you know, my
09:31 friends and family are beginning to say
09:33 like, "Why don't you take up golf or you
09:36 know, why don't why don't you play
09:38 pickle ball?" And I do play a little
09:39 pickle ball. But, um, you know, uh, it's
09:46 I don't know the word for it exactly
09:48 because I don't want to say it's a
09:49 calling. That's too strong. But it's my
09:53 life's purpose. It's my life's work.
09:56 It's my life's purpose. And you know, it
09:59 reminded me when my kids were little, I
10:03 I never talked to them a lot about what
10:05 I did, but one time I made them come
10:07 down because I was speaking to a big
10:09 group of lawyers. And I made them come
10:11 down because I thought they need to see
10:13 what mom does. And my youngest son drew
10:16 a little sketch of me uh as he was
10:19 watching and probably not listening. But
10:21 when I got home, he showed it to me and
10:23 it's little me with this giant
10:25 briefcase. And I was like, "What is what
10:28 does that mean?" Or, you know, "What are
10:29 you trying to depict?" And he said,
10:31 "That's you." Because after you, you
10:34 know, we do homework, you read us
10:36 stories, we go to bed, that's what you
10:39 do because you bring your work home
10:40 every night. And I was like, "Wow, I
10:42 didn't know they knew that." Wow. That's
10:44 Wow.
10:45 Yeah. Lots of burning the midnight oil
10:48 at the dining room table with, you know,
10:51 medical records spread everywhere
10:52 looking for that needle in the
10:53 haststack. But
10:56 so, as we transition to the podcast,
10:59 you know, obviously you've done this for
11:01 many years. You've got so many stories
11:02 to tell and so many things to share with
11:05 people to help. Why now?
11:08 Well, uh, I'd been wanting to do this
11:12 for a long time. And I think when I
11:14 turned 65,
11:16 I realized I was like, "Oh, that's a
11:19 real number." And I feel 35, but I
11:23 realized that my chronological age is
11:26 not 35. So, you know, the runway starts
11:30 getting a little shorter at a certain
11:32 point, and it's like, if you're gonna
11:33 either stop talking about it or do it.
11:36 Yeah. So, um I just feel that there are
11:40 things that I have seen and things that
11:44 I know after all of these decades doing
11:48 this work that other people need to
11:51 know.
11:52 And you know, ultimately, I'm trying to
11:55 make my own little dent in the universe.
11:57 I'm trying to do something that can help
12:00 people. And that's that's the gist of
12:03 it. So, why don't you take a second to
12:05 talk about what you want this podcast to
12:08 be?
12:09 Well, first of all, I want the podcast
12:12 to not be boring, and I don't think it
12:15 will be.
12:15 Oh, I don't think so.
12:16 Um, and I want people to listen to it
12:21 because they want to learn and be
12:23 educated.
12:25 You know, part of the problem in trying
12:28 to get people interested in patient
12:30 safety is, you know, we're inundated
12:33 with so much information and it's easy
12:35 for people to say, "Oh, that's never
12:36 going to happen to me. That's, you know,
12:38 in SL a not applicable to me."
12:40 But it is applicable to everyone because
12:43 we are all patients and no one is
12:47 exempt, no one is special. You know, I
12:52 this was brought home to me when I had
12:55 to have a little procedure. And you
12:59 know, you're kind of like just naked
13:02 bodies laying on gurnies and it doesn't
13:04 matter. Does does this person have
13:07 beautiful jewelry? Oh, they must have
13:08 been really successful. Or did this
13:11 person come in with a designer handbag?
13:13 Is this person a Republican or a
13:15 Democrat, a liberal or a conservative?
13:19 Whatever. It doesn't matter. It is the
13:21 great equalizer. We are all naked bodies
13:26 laying on a gurnie. And so it it matters
13:30 to everyone.
13:32 Um the other primary reason that I'm
13:36 doing this is that there is no unified
13:40 patient safety
13:43 advocacy organization.
13:45 You know, we don't have an FAA. We don't
13:48 have a nuclear regulatory commission. We
13:51 don't have a patient safety zar. And
13:55 the doctors, the hospitals,
13:58 all of the health care providers have
14:01 big powerful and wealthy organizations
14:06 that lobby politicians. The patients
14:10 don't have that. And we desperately need
14:14 some reforms in our health care system.
14:17 So to be perfectly transparent about it,
14:20 I'm trying to grow a movement where the
14:23 patients can level the playing field
14:25 with the rich and powerful and have our
14:28 voices heard.
14:29 Yeah. And so I mean I was going to ask
14:31 the next question of, you know, who do
14:32 you want to listen to this podcast, but
14:34 sounds like it should be everybody.
14:36 It should be. And that includes people
14:38 that don't agree with me. Um, you know,
14:42 I might seem like a nice person, but not
14:44 everyone views me that way. You may be
14:47 surprised to know that there's a lot of
14:49 people that can't stand me. And I'm okay
14:51 with that because if everybody liked me,
14:55 then I wouldn't be doing my job. Um, you
14:59 know, and I've developed really tough
15:01 skin over the years. Like, so there's a
15:03 lot of people that think I am mean, like
15:06 a mean lady,
15:08 and that's I mean, I it's okay. Um, but
15:13 I really hope that people will come on
15:16 this show who disagree with me and
15:18 let's, you know, let's politely let's
15:20 take the gloves off.
15:21 I want to see this. I want to see this.
15:23 K. Yeah,
15:24 that's what I I want to see the gloves
15:25 off.
15:26 You probably will.
15:28 Well, I you know, with the podcast, you
15:31 know, as we move forward and more
15:34 episodes come out, what can, you know,
15:36 people expect from it? Like, you know,
15:38 who are you going to be interviewing?
15:40 Who what kind of guests are you going to
15:41 have? What topics?
15:44 Well, so season one is going to be all
15:47 about Dr. Death. Now, when people hear
15:49 that may they may say, "We already know
15:51 that story. We've already heard it. You
15:53 know, it was a podcast, a documentary, a
15:56 made for TV movie. It was an American
15:58 Greed episode. It's been all over the
16:01 papers." But there's only so deep that
16:05 um you know, television or whatever can
16:07 go. you know, we've got five seconds to
16:09 devote to this, 15 seconds to devote to
16:11 that. So,
16:13 we're going to take we're going to break
16:15 it down and we're going to go deep dive
16:19 on each of the reasons that we had a
16:22 doctor death and why we still are at
16:26 danger of having other doctor deaths.
16:28 And the the reason that Dr. death is
16:31 still important is because the system
16:34 failures that gave us him, they existed
16:38 for decades before Dun probably was
16:42 still in diapers and those problems
16:44 existed. And the number of reforms that
16:47 have been made since Dr. Death,
16:50 approximately zero. So, you know, that's
16:53 why we're going to start there.
16:56 Wow. I mean, that makes me first of all,
16:59 I'm kind of lost at this point because
17:01 you saying that there has been zero. Um,
17:03 that's that's shocking to me. It's
17:06 shocking to a lot of people.
17:08 I'm honestly speechless because I mean,
17:09 how many years ago was that at this
17:11 point?
17:11 It's been a decade ago. And um you know
17:15 a lot of the people uh physicians,
17:19 hospital administrators, prosecutors,
17:23 we say we kept the band together. And we
17:26 have been working since that time to try
17:28 to get the system changed. And you know,
17:32 we joke with each other, we like, well,
17:33 we've been an utter failure. We haven't
17:35 been able to. It's just us. Yeah. You
17:38 know, and we can't compete with the big
17:40 and the powerful. And we can't get the
17:42 attention of the politicians. You know,
17:44 I think politicians, they poll on things
17:46 and they know that people care about
17:49 certain things and then that's what you
17:51 hear in their stump speeches and a lot
17:54 of people vote on those issues. But
17:56 people need to be voting on patient
17:58 safety issues because there's a lot of
18:01 things that politics is about these
18:04 days, but most of those things aren't
18:06 going to kill you, right? This is really
18:09 important.
18:10 Wow.
18:12 Well, I mean, I'm really looking forward
18:14 to the podcast. I cannot wait to see the
18:17 different episodes that you're going to
18:18 have, you know, talking about Dr. Death
18:20 and having everybody, you know, I I hope
18:23 that you're going to take questions from
18:25 people that are watching and listening.
18:26 Is that something you're going to do?
18:29 I really want this to be interactive and
18:31 we're going to have a way for people to
18:32 contact us um to ask us what do they
18:36 want to know because you know as they
18:38 always say a the thing a lawyer loves to
18:42 hear the most is the sound of their own
18:44 voice
18:45 and so I don't want this to be me
18:47 listening to the sound of my own voice.
18:50 I want to hear from people and I hope
18:52 that they will engage.
18:55 Well, I already have a whole bunch of
18:56 questions so
18:56 Oh, good. we'll be ready to go. So,
18:59 well, I'm looking forward to the podcast
19:00 and uh you know, I really hope that, you
19:04 know, it really touches as many people
19:06 as possible because I do think this is
19:07 important.
19:08 We need to have education so that when
19:11 we're at the hospital or we're at the
19:12 doctor that we can advocate before
19:14 something happens.
19:16 It's not the patient's responsibility to
19:18 have to be aware of the preventable
19:22 medical mistakes that can harm them, but
19:25 having the knowledge um can empower a
19:29 patient. You know, the problem is, and
19:32 I'm going to be kind of a Debbie Downer
19:34 about some of these things, there are a
19:36 lot of things that no matter how hard
19:38 the patient tries or what all they do,
19:42 the system is set up where there's no
19:44 transparency.
19:46 And so, um, at least we'll know what the
19:51 limits are. Perfect. Thank you so much
19:54 for joining me on this first episode of
19:56 Advocate, holding healthcare
19:58 accountable. I hope you found it helpful
20:00 and inspiring. Remember, this fight
20:03 isn't just mine, it's ours. Together, we
20:06 can demand better, safer care for
20:08 ourselves and our loved ones. If you
20:11 have any questions or topics you'd like
20:13 for me to cover in an upcoming episode,
20:15 I'd love to hear from you. Send me your
20:17 thoughts and let's keep this
20:19 conversation going. If you enjoyed
20:21 today's episode, please subscribe and
20:23 leave us a review wherever you listen to
20:25 podcasts. Until next time, take care of
20:27 yourself, stay informed, and never stop
20:30 advocating for what's right.
20:33 Thank you so much for listening, and
20:34 thank you so much for having me. I'm
20:35 looking forward to the podcast.
20:36 Thank you so much, Kaylee.
20:41 [Music]