advocate holding healthc care
accountable. This podcast is my way of
sharing what I've learned about the
mistakes, the coverups, and the ways we
can all protect ourselves. We're all in
this together.
Hi, and welcome to Advocate, holding
healthc care accountable. I'm Kay Van
Way, and I'm so glad you're here. If
you've heard of me, it might be because
of my work on the Dr. Death cases. But
what you might not know is that for over
40 years, I've been fighting for
patients and families who've been let
down by a health care system that's
supposed to protect them. This podcast
is my way of sharing what I've learned
about the mistakes, the coverups, and
the ways we can all better protect
ourselves because at the end of the day,
we're all in this together. Today I'm
joined by my co-host Kaylee Pere who's
going to guide us through the podcast uh
and introduce us to what this is all
about and why we're doing it.
I am so excited to be here with you.
First of all, you're amazing and I do
think that this podcast is really
important and what you're going to be
talking about. So, I can't wait to kind
of unpack that. But I do think the main
question, you know, that we're the
listen listeners or viewers are going to
want to know is, you know, you've been a
lawyer for many years, but what made you
want to be a lawyer? Where did that
start? Well, it started in high school.
And it's it's kind of funny because I
didn't have any lawyers in my family. My
mother was a ballet teacher and my dad
was a small businessman in a small town
in Oklahoma. But um I started out in
high school as a student council nerd
and a varsity debater. And um I was
always the kind of person that I felt
like a little guy and an outsider. And I
always was about my fellow little guys
and my fellow outsiders and I always
felt that I was longing for a sense of
justice for other people. So you know
this just extended. I went to college on
a leadership scholarship. I ran for the
student council there and and so on and
so forth. And then when I got to law
school, I didn't know a tort from a
contract from an oil and gas lease and I
sat in my first year tors class and I
was like, "Wow, this is it." And then my
first job became uh I worked for a
medical malpractice lawyer in Oklahoma
City and I was like this is absolutely
what I want to do. If I can ever get
there, if I can ever do it, that's what
I want to do.
And didn't you when you first started, I
think when we were talking the other
day, uh you wanted to be in the
courtroom so bad that you went and
knocked on doors.
Oh, yeah.
Did Did you do that?
Yes. So, um I'm from Lton, Oklahoma. And
so when I first moved back, um well, I
started as a prosecutor and I was in the
courtroom all the time. And it was kind
of funny because in a small town there,
um the part of the trial, the vory, you
start out and you say, "Does does anyone
know me?" You know, "Does anyone know my
client? Does anyone know me?" And it was
really hard to pick a jury there because
people would raise their hands and say,
"Oh, your mother taught my daughter
ballet or you know, your dad sold my son
a car or my dad a car or something." So,
it was a very welcoming environment for
me. But when I went out into private
practice, I didn't have any clients at
all. And so, we had a criminal court
appointment system in Comanche County.
So, I went around to these older lawyers
that didn't want those cases. They
already had an established practice. And
I'd say, "Just give me your cases. I'll
do them." And so, that's how I initially
built my practice. And I was fine with
it. A felony jury trial paid $500 and a
misdemeanor jury trial paid $350. So,
back then, this was in the, you know,
mid80s, I was great with that. But I was
literally in the courtroom all the time.
And that's what I loved. And you said,
you know, you worked for a medical
malpractice firm when you first started
and that's you were like, I have to do
this. What was it about that that made
you want to do medical malpractice
instead of some other
Well, well, I probably would have loved
to have been a doctor, but the math and
sciences weren't my strong suit. So I
guess this is the next best thing maybe
because you get to learn the medicine,
study the medicine, understand the
health care system, and then you know
the witnesses that you're
cross-examining or presenting or
whatever, they're medical experts. So in
order to go toe-to-toe with them, you
have to be an expert on the law, but you
have to really dig deep into the
medicine as well. So, I just think I
would have probably wanted to gouge my
eyeballs out if I had sat drafting
contracts all day for a living. Um,
there's never no two days are ever the
same for me.
Yeah. And I I mean, having to dig deep
into healthcare and you can't just like
do the surface like you had to really
know what you were talking about. So,
you kind of had to be a doctor per se,
you know? Well, you know, uh, a witness,
whether they're a doctor or any other
kind of witness, they will try to pull
your leg, and you have to be able to
know like, is this doctor trying to pull
one over on me? You have to know enough
to know when you're getting played. And
it throughout the course of your career
because you've been doing this a very
very long time. Is has there been, you
know, a situation where, you know, you
you never expected,
you know, like a a case or something
that has stands out to you that was a
turning point for you, like I've got to
do more of this to make sure that these
people are taken care of. Well,
interestingly,
everyone thinks of the big tort reform
in Texas that we had as being 2003, and
that's when the voters changed uh voted
to change the Texas Constitution to
allow special protections for healthc
care providers. But I was around for the
first round of T tort reform, which was
when um our governor was Bush. So,
that's how long it's been going on. But
you know, most of the lawyers
kind of that represented patients, they
weathered the storm through round one.
But in 2003, when we got the big bill
and the big constitution change, the
overwhelming majority of medical
malpractice lawyers representing
patients left to do other things.
They're like, "Heck, I can't make a
living doing that. I need to go become a
business litigator or whatever."
Interesting. So, I just felt like I
can't leave because
somebody has got to continue to do this
work. I mean, it's very important.
Sometimes we're the only the only ones
calling for accountability and holding
them accountable. So, I would say that
was really I don't want to say a turning
point, but that's when I knew like, you
know, it's the Hotel California. I've
checked in and I'm never checking out.
Not going anywhere.
That's right. And that that's that's a
big hurdle for you because you have to
learn a whole different, you know, as
they change everything, more to learn,
more to be there for. Are there any
other big hurdles throughout your career
that stand out to you that you know
maybe helped shape this podcast now?
Well, it reminds me of something that um
you can't let other people get into your
head because at various times in my
career, people have been in my ear
saying you can't do that or you
shouldn't do that. But I used to have
this thing. I don't know what happened
to it, but it was taped to my computer
monitor and it said, "Don't look at your
feet, just dance." And that's kind of
been one of my things. With the Dutch
cases, for example, people were like,
"Sure, everybody knows that DUCH is
negligent. That's anybody can make that
malpractice case, but you're never going
to make the case against the hospitals.
You're never going to do that." you
know, when I was trying to hold um drug
suppliers responsible for uh sell
basically selling drugs to pain clinics
and then the pain clinics were doing out
uh drugs to people that didn't need
them. People were like, you're never
going to hold a wholesaler responsible.
You're never going to go up the food
chain on that. So, I guess maybe that's
a problem I have with my personality is
people shouldn't tell me I challenge
accepted. Right. I I'm kind of like that
too. So I understand. I actually prefer
if you tell me I can't do it because
there you go.
Then there you go. Right. But it's a lot
of work. I mean I mean when I was
talking to you the other day I How many
with one case? How many hours are you
putting into this? Like how do you keep
going you know when you're up sun up to
sun down even past that
right
to protect people.
Well it's a great question. and how do
you keep going? Because, you know, I'm
no spring chicken anymore. I've been at
it a minute or two. And uh, you know, my
friends and family are beginning to say
like, "Why don't you take up golf or you
know, why don't why don't you play
pickle ball?" And I do play a little
pickle ball. But, um, you know, uh, it's
I don't know the word for it exactly
because I don't want to say it's a
calling. That's too strong. But it's my
life's purpose. It's my life's work.
It's my life's purpose. And you know, it
reminded me when my kids were little, I
I never talked to them a lot about what
I did, but one time I made them come
down because I was speaking to a big
group of lawyers. And I made them come
down because I thought they need to see
what mom does. And my youngest son drew
a little sketch of me uh as he was
watching and probably not listening. But
when I got home, he showed it to me and
it's little me with this giant
briefcase. And I was like, "What is what
does that mean?" Or, you know, "What are
you trying to depict?" And he said,
"That's you." Because after you, you
know, we do homework, you read us
stories, we go to bed, that's what you
do because you bring your work home
every night. And I was like, "Wow, I
didn't know they knew that." Wow. That's
Wow.
Yeah. Lots of burning the midnight oil
at the dining room table with, you know,
medical records spread everywhere
looking for that needle in the
haststack. But
so, as we transition to the podcast,
you know, obviously you've done this for
many years. You've got so many stories
to tell and so many things to share with
people to help. Why now?
Well, uh, I'd been wanting to do this
for a long time. And I think when I
turned 65,
I realized I was like, "Oh, that's a
real number." And I feel 35, but I
realized that my chronological age is
not 35. So, you know, the runway starts
getting a little shorter at a certain
point, and it's like, if you're gonna
either stop talking about it or do it.
Yeah. So, um I just feel that there are
things that I have seen and things that
I know after all of these decades doing
this work that other people need to
know.
And you know, ultimately, I'm trying to
make my own little dent in the universe.
I'm trying to do something that can help
people. And that's that's the gist of
it. So, why don't you take a second to
talk about what you want this podcast to
be?
Well, first of all, I want the podcast
to not be boring, and I don't think it
will be.
Oh, I don't think so.
Um, and I want people to listen to it
because they want to learn and be
educated.
You know, part of the problem in trying
to get people interested in patient
safety is, you know, we're inundated
with so much information and it's easy
for people to say, "Oh, that's never
going to happen to me. That's, you know,
in SL a not applicable to me."
But it is applicable to everyone because
we are all patients and no one is
exempt, no one is special. You know, I
this was brought home to me when I had
to have a little procedure. And you
know, you're kind of like just naked
bodies laying on gurnies and it doesn't
matter. Does does this person have
beautiful jewelry? Oh, they must have
been really successful. Or did this
person come in with a designer handbag?
Is this person a Republican or a
Democrat, a liberal or a conservative?
Whatever. It doesn't matter. It is the
great equalizer. We are all naked bodies
laying on a gurnie. And so it it matters
to everyone.
Um the other primary reason that I'm
doing this is that there is no unified
patient safety
advocacy organization.
You know, we don't have an FAA. We don't
have a nuclear regulatory commission. We
don't have a patient safety zar. And
the doctors, the hospitals,
all of the health care providers have
big powerful and wealthy organizations
that lobby politicians. The patients
don't have that. And we desperately need
some reforms in our health care system.
So to be perfectly transparent about it,
I'm trying to grow a movement where the
patients can level the playing field
with the rich and powerful and have our
voices heard.
Yeah. And so I mean I was going to ask
the next question of, you know, who do
you want to listen to this podcast, but
sounds like it should be everybody.
It should be. And that includes people
that don't agree with me. Um, you know,
I might seem like a nice person, but not
everyone views me that way. You may be
surprised to know that there's a lot of
people that can't stand me. And I'm okay
with that because if everybody liked me,
then I wouldn't be doing my job. Um, you
know, and I've developed really tough
skin over the years. Like, so there's a
lot of people that think I am mean, like
a mean lady,
and that's I mean, I it's okay. Um, but
I really hope that people will come on
this show who disagree with me and
let's, you know, let's politely let's
take the gloves off.
I want to see this. I want to see this.
K. Yeah,
that's what I I want to see the gloves
off.
You probably will.
Well, I you know, with the podcast, you
know, as we move forward and more
episodes come out, what can, you know,
people expect from it? Like, you know,
who are you going to be interviewing?
Who what kind of guests are you going to
have? What topics?
Well, so season one is going to be all
about Dr. Death. Now, when people hear
that may they may say, "We already know
that story. We've already heard it. You
know, it was a podcast, a documentary, a
made for TV movie. It was an American
Greed episode. It's been all over the
papers." But there's only so deep that
um you know, television or whatever can
go. you know, we've got five seconds to
devote to this, 15 seconds to devote to
that. So,
we're going to take we're going to break
it down and we're going to go deep dive
on each of the reasons that we had a
doctor death and why we still are at
danger of having other doctor deaths.
And the the reason that Dr. death is
still important is because the system
failures that gave us him, they existed
for decades before Dun probably was
still in diapers and those problems
existed. And the number of reforms that
have been made since Dr. Death,
approximately zero. So, you know, that's
why we're going to start there.
Wow. I mean, that makes me first of all,
I'm kind of lost at this point because
you saying that there has been zero. Um,
that's that's shocking to me. It's
shocking to a lot of people.
I'm honestly speechless because I mean,
how many years ago was that at this
point?
It's been a decade ago. And um you know
a lot of the people uh physicians,
hospital administrators, prosecutors,
we say we kept the band together. And we
have been working since that time to try
to get the system changed. And you know,
we joke with each other, we like, well,
we've been an utter failure. We haven't
been able to. It's just us. Yeah. You
know, and we can't compete with the big
and the powerful. And we can't get the
attention of the politicians. You know,
I think politicians, they poll on things
and they know that people care about
certain things and then that's what you
hear in their stump speeches and a lot
of people vote on those issues. But
people need to be voting on patient
safety issues because there's a lot of
things that politics is about these
days, but most of those things aren't
going to kill you, right? This is really
important.
Wow.
Well, I mean, I'm really looking forward
to the podcast. I cannot wait to see the
different episodes that you're going to
have, you know, talking about Dr. Death
and having everybody, you know, I I hope
that you're going to take questions from
people that are watching and listening.
Is that something you're going to do?
I really want this to be interactive and
we're going to have a way for people to
contact us um to ask us what do they
want to know because you know as they
always say a the thing a lawyer loves to
hear the most is the sound of their own
voice
and so I don't want this to be me
listening to the sound of my own voice.
I want to hear from people and I hope
that they will engage.
Well, I already have a whole bunch of
questions so
Oh, good. we'll be ready to go. So,
well, I'm looking forward to the podcast
and uh you know, I really hope that, you
know, it really touches as many people
as possible because I do think this is
important.
We need to have education so that when
we're at the hospital or we're at the
doctor that we can advocate before
something happens.
It's not the patient's responsibility to
have to be aware of the preventable
medical mistakes that can harm them, but
having the knowledge um can empower a
patient. You know, the problem is, and
I'm going to be kind of a Debbie Downer
about some of these things, there are a
lot of things that no matter how hard
the patient tries or what all they do,
the system is set up where there's no
transparency.
And so, um, at least we'll know what the
limits are. Perfect. Thank you so much
for joining me on this first episode of
Advocate, holding healthcare
accountable. I hope you found it helpful
and inspiring. Remember, this fight
isn't just mine, it's ours. Together, we
can demand better, safer care for
ourselves and our loved ones. If you
have any questions or topics you'd like
for me to cover in an upcoming episode,
I'd love to hear from you. Send me your
thoughts and let's keep this
conversation going. If you enjoyed
today's episode, please subscribe and
leave us a review wherever you listen to
podcasts. Until next time, take care of
yourself, stay informed, and never stop
advocating for what's right.
Thank you so much for listening, and
thank you so much for having me. I'm
looking forward to the podcast.
Thank you so much, Kaylee.
[Music]