WEBVTT

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advocate holding healthc care

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accountable. This podcast is my way of

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sharing what I've learned about the

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mistakes, the coverups, and the ways we

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can all protect ourselves. We're all in

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this together.

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Hi, and welcome to Advocate, holding

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healthc care accountable. I'm Kay Van

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Way, and I'm so glad you're here. If

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you've heard of me, it might be because

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of my work on the Dr. Death cases. But

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what you might not know is that for over

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40 years, I've been fighting for

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patients and families who've been let

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down by a health care system that's

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supposed to protect them. This podcast

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is my way of sharing what I've learned

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about the mistakes, the coverups, and

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the ways we can all better protect

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ourselves because at the end of the day,

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we're all in this together. Today I'm

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joined by my co-host Kaylee Pere who's

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going to guide us through the podcast uh

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and introduce us to what this is all

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about and why we're doing it.

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I am so excited to be here with you.

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First of all, you're amazing and I do

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think that this podcast is really

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important and what you're going to be

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talking about. So, I can't wait to kind

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of unpack that. But I do think the main

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question, you know, that we're the

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listen listeners or viewers are going to

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want to know is, you know, you've been a

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lawyer for many years, but what made you

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want to be a lawyer? Where did that

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start? Well, it started in high school.

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And it's it's kind of funny because I

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didn't have any lawyers in my family. My

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mother was a ballet teacher and my dad

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was a small businessman in a small town

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in Oklahoma. But um I started out in

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high school as a student council nerd

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and a varsity debater. And um I was

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always the kind of person that I felt

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like a little guy and an outsider. And I

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always was about my fellow little guys

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and my fellow outsiders and I always

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felt that I was longing for a sense of

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justice for other people. So you know

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this just extended. I went to college on

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a leadership scholarship. I ran for the

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student council there and and so on and

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so forth. And then when I got to law

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school, I didn't know a tort from a

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contract from an oil and gas lease and I

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sat in my first year tors class and I

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was like, "Wow, this is it." And then my

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first job became uh I worked for a

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medical malpractice lawyer in Oklahoma

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City and I was like this is absolutely

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what I want to do. If I can ever get

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there, if I can ever do it, that's what

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I want to do.

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And didn't you when you first started, I

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think when we were talking the other

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day, uh you wanted to be in the

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courtroom so bad that you went and

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knocked on doors.

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Oh, yeah.

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Did Did you do that?

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Yes. So, um I'm from Lton, Oklahoma. And

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so when I first moved back, um well, I

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started as a prosecutor and I was in the

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courtroom all the time. And it was kind

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of funny because in a small town there,

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um the part of the trial, the vory, you

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start out and you say, "Does does anyone

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know me?" You know, "Does anyone know my

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client? Does anyone know me?" And it was

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really hard to pick a jury there because

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people would raise their hands and say,

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"Oh, your mother taught my daughter

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ballet or you know, your dad sold my son

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a car or my dad a car or something." So,

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it was a very welcoming environment for

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me. But when I went out into private

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practice, I didn't have any clients at

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all. And so, we had a criminal court

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appointment system in Comanche County.

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So, I went around to these older lawyers

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that didn't want those cases. They

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already had an established practice. And

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I'd say, "Just give me your cases. I'll

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do them." And so, that's how I initially

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built my practice. And I was fine with

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it. A felony jury trial paid $500 and a

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misdemeanor jury trial paid $350. So,

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back then, this was in the, you know,

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mid80s, I was great with that. But I was

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literally in the courtroom all the time.

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And that's what I loved. And you said,

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you know, you worked for a medical

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malpractice firm when you first started

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and that's you were like, I have to do

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this. What was it about that that made

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you want to do medical malpractice

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instead of some other

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Well, well, I probably would have loved

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to have been a doctor, but the math and

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sciences weren't my strong suit. So I

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guess this is the next best thing maybe

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because you get to learn the medicine,

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study the medicine, understand the

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health care system, and then you know

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the witnesses that you're

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cross-examining or presenting or

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whatever, they're medical experts. So in

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order to go toe-to-toe with them, you

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have to be an expert on the law, but you

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have to really dig deep into the

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medicine as well. So, I just think I

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would have probably wanted to gouge my

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eyeballs out if I had sat drafting

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contracts all day for a living. Um,

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there's never no two days are ever the

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same for me.

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Yeah. And I I mean, having to dig deep

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into healthcare and you can't just like

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do the surface like you had to really

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know what you were talking about. So,

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you kind of had to be a doctor per se,

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you know? Well, you know, uh, a witness,

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whether they're a doctor or any other

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kind of witness, they will try to pull

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your leg, and you have to be able to

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know like, is this doctor trying to pull

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one over on me? You have to know enough

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to know when you're getting played. And

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it throughout the course of your career

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because you've been doing this a very

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very long time. Is has there been, you

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know, a situation where, you know, you

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you never expected,

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you know, like a a case or something

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that has stands out to you that was a

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turning point for you, like I've got to

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do more of this to make sure that these

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people are taken care of. Well,

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interestingly,

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everyone thinks of the big tort reform

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in Texas that we had as being 2003, and

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that's when the voters changed uh voted

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to change the Texas Constitution to

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allow special protections for healthc

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care providers. But I was around for the

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first round of T tort reform, which was

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when um our governor was Bush. So,

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that's how long it's been going on. But

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you know, most of the lawyers

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kind of that represented patients, they

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weathered the storm through round one.

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But in 2003, when we got the big bill

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and the big constitution change, the

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overwhelming majority of medical

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malpractice lawyers representing

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patients left to do other things.

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They're like, "Heck, I can't make a

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living doing that. I need to go become a

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business litigator or whatever."

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Interesting. So, I just felt like I

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can't leave because

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somebody has got to continue to do this

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work. I mean, it's very important.

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Sometimes we're the only the only ones

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calling for accountability and holding

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them accountable. So, I would say that

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was really I don't want to say a turning

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point, but that's when I knew like, you

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know, it's the Hotel California. I've

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checked in and I'm never checking out.

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Not going anywhere.

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That's right. And that that's that's a

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big hurdle for you because you have to

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learn a whole different, you know, as

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they change everything, more to learn,

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more to be there for. Are there any

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other big hurdles throughout your career

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that stand out to you that you know

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maybe helped shape this podcast now?

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Well, it reminds me of something that um

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you can't let other people get into your

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head because at various times in my

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career, people have been in my ear

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saying you can't do that or you

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shouldn't do that. But I used to have

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this thing. I don't know what happened

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to it, but it was taped to my computer

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monitor and it said, "Don't look at your

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feet, just dance." And that's kind of

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been one of my things. With the Dutch

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cases, for example, people were like,

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"Sure, everybody knows that DUCH is

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negligent. That's anybody can make that

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malpractice case, but you're never going

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to make the case against the hospitals.

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You're never going to do that." you

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know, when I was trying to hold um drug

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suppliers responsible for uh sell

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basically selling drugs to pain clinics

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and then the pain clinics were doing out

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uh drugs to people that didn't need

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them. People were like, you're never

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going to hold a wholesaler responsible.

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You're never going to go up the food

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chain on that. So, I guess maybe that's

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a problem I have with my personality is

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people shouldn't tell me I challenge

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accepted. Right. I I'm kind of like that

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too. So I understand. I actually prefer

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if you tell me I can't do it because

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there you go.

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Then there you go. Right. But it's a lot

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of work. I mean I mean when I was

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talking to you the other day I How many

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with one case? How many hours are you

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putting into this? Like how do you keep

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going you know when you're up sun up to

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sun down even past that

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right

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to protect people.

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Well it's a great question. and how do

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you keep going? Because, you know, I'm

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no spring chicken anymore. I've been at

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it a minute or two. And uh, you know, my

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friends and family are beginning to say

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like, "Why don't you take up golf or you

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know, why don't why don't you play

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pickle ball?" And I do play a little

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pickle ball. But, um, you know, uh, it's

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I don't know the word for it exactly

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because I don't want to say it's a

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calling. That's too strong. But it's my

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life's purpose. It's my life's work.

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It's my life's purpose. And you know, it

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reminded me when my kids were little, I

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I never talked to them a lot about what

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I did, but one time I made them come

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down because I was speaking to a big

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group of lawyers. And I made them come

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down because I thought they need to see

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what mom does. And my youngest son drew

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a little sketch of me uh as he was

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watching and probably not listening. But

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when I got home, he showed it to me and

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it's little me with this giant

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briefcase. And I was like, "What is what

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does that mean?" Or, you know, "What are

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you trying to depict?" And he said,

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"That's you." Because after you, you

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know, we do homework, you read us

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stories, we go to bed, that's what you

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do because you bring your work home

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every night. And I was like, "Wow, I

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didn't know they knew that." Wow. That's

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Wow.

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Yeah. Lots of burning the midnight oil

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at the dining room table with, you know,

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medical records spread everywhere

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looking for that needle in the

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haststack. But

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so, as we transition to the podcast,

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you know, obviously you've done this for

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many years. You've got so many stories

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to tell and so many things to share with

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people to help. Why now?

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Well, uh, I'd been wanting to do this

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for a long time. And I think when I

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turned 65,

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I realized I was like, "Oh, that's a

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real number." And I feel 35, but I

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realized that my chronological age is

283
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not 35. So, you know, the runway starts

284
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getting a little shorter at a certain

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point, and it's like, if you're gonna

286
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either stop talking about it or do it.

287
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:40.240
Yeah. So, um I just feel that there are

288
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.839
things that I have seen and things that

289
00:11:43.839 --> 00:11:47.839
I know after all of these decades doing

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this work that other people need to

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know.

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And you know, ultimately, I'm trying to

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make my own little dent in the universe.

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I'm trying to do something that can help

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people. And that's that's the gist of

296
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.440
it. So, why don't you take a second to

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00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.839
talk about what you want this podcast to

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00:12:07.839 --> 00:12:09.279
be?

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00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.920
Well, first of all, I want the podcast

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to not be boring, and I don't think it

301
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will be.

302
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:16.240
Oh, I don't think so.

303
00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:21.120
Um, and I want people to listen to it

304
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because they want to learn and be

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educated.

306
00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:27.760
You know, part of the problem in trying

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00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.079
to get people interested in patient

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safety is, you know, we're inundated

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with so much information and it's easy

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for people to say, "Oh, that's never

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going to happen to me. That's, you know,

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in SL a not applicable to me."

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But it is applicable to everyone because

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we are all patients and no one is

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exempt, no one is special. You know, I

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this was brought home to me when I had

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to have a little procedure. And you

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know, you're kind of like just naked

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bodies laying on gurnies and it doesn't

320
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matter. Does does this person have

321
00:13:06.560 --> 00:13:08.399
beautiful jewelry? Oh, they must have

322
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.880
been really successful. Or did this

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person come in with a designer handbag?

324
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Is this person a Republican or a

325
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Democrat, a liberal or a conservative?

326
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Whatever. It doesn't matter. It is the

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great equalizer. We are all naked bodies

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laying on a gurnie. And so it it matters

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to everyone.

330
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.680
Um the other primary reason that I'm

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doing this is that there is no unified

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00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.720
patient safety

333
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.279
advocacy organization.

334
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.480
You know, we don't have an FAA. We don't

335
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.800
have a nuclear regulatory commission. We

336
00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:54.959
don't have a patient safety zar. And

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00:13:54.959 --> 00:13:58.399
the doctors, the hospitals,

338
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all of the health care providers have

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00:14:00.959 --> 00:14:06.320
big powerful and wealthy organizations

340
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.839
that lobby politicians. The patients

341
00:14:09.839 --> 00:14:14.000
don't have that. And we desperately need

342
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.199
some reforms in our health care system.

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So to be perfectly transparent about it,

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I'm trying to grow a movement where the

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00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:24.800
patients can level the playing field

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with the rich and powerful and have our

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voices heard.

348
00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:30.720
Yeah. And so I mean I was going to ask

349
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:32.160
the next question of, you know, who do

350
00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:34.079
you want to listen to this podcast, but

351
00:14:34.079 --> 00:14:36.160
sounds like it should be everybody.

352
00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:38.240
It should be. And that includes people

353
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.920
that don't agree with me. Um, you know,

354
00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:44.240
I might seem like a nice person, but not

355
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.959
everyone views me that way. You may be

356
00:14:46.959 --> 00:14:48.639
surprised to know that there's a lot of

357
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.360
people that can't stand me. And I'm okay

358
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.720
with that because if everybody liked me,

359
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.639
then I wouldn't be doing my job. Um, you

360
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:00.959
know, and I've developed really tough

361
00:15:00.959 --> 00:15:03.040
skin over the years. Like, so there's a

362
00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.600
lot of people that think I am mean, like

363
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.320
a mean lady,

364
00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:12.720
and that's I mean, I it's okay. Um, but

365
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.920
I really hope that people will come on

366
00:15:15.920 --> 00:15:17.839
this show who disagree with me and

367
00:15:17.839 --> 00:15:20.000
let's, you know, let's politely let's

368
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:21.279
take the gloves off.

369
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:22.880
I want to see this. I want to see this.

370
00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:23.519
K. Yeah,

371
00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:25.040
that's what I I want to see the gloves

372
00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:26.320
off.

373
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.480
You probably will.

374
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.959
Well, I you know, with the podcast, you

375
00:15:30.959 --> 00:15:33.920
know, as we move forward and more

376
00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:36.079
episodes come out, what can, you know,

377
00:15:36.079 --> 00:15:38.240
people expect from it? Like, you know,

378
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:39.680
who are you going to be interviewing?

379
00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:41.040
Who what kind of guests are you going to

380
00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:43.600
have? What topics?

381
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.560
Well, so season one is going to be all

382
00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:49.040
about Dr. Death. Now, when people hear

383
00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:51.199
that may they may say, "We already know

384
00:15:51.199 --> 00:15:53.040
that story. We've already heard it. You

385
00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:56.000
know, it was a podcast, a documentary, a

386
00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.160
made for TV movie. It was an American

387
00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.560
Greed episode. It's been all over the

388
00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:04.959
papers." But there's only so deep that

389
00:16:04.959 --> 00:16:06.800
um you know, television or whatever can

390
00:16:06.800 --> 00:16:08.800
go. you know, we've got five seconds to

391
00:16:08.800 --> 00:16:10.880
devote to this, 15 seconds to devote to

392
00:16:10.880 --> 00:16:13.440
that. So,

393
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.040
we're going to take we're going to break

394
00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:18.560
it down and we're going to go deep dive

395
00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:21.519
on each of the reasons that we had a

396
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.680
doctor death and why we still are at

397
00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:28.399
danger of having other doctor deaths.

398
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.440
And the the reason that Dr. death is

399
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.399
still important is because the system

400
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.079
failures that gave us him, they existed

401
00:16:38.079 --> 00:16:41.600
for decades before Dun probably was

402
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.079
still in diapers and those problems

403
00:16:44.079 --> 00:16:47.120
existed. And the number of reforms that

404
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.519
have been made since Dr. Death,

405
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.199
approximately zero. So, you know, that's

406
00:16:53.199 --> 00:16:56.160
why we're going to start there.

407
00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:58.560
Wow. I mean, that makes me first of all,

408
00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:00.639
I'm kind of lost at this point because

409
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.279
you saying that there has been zero. Um,

410
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.240
that's that's shocking to me. It's

411
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.520
shocking to a lot of people.

412
00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:09.438
I'm honestly speechless because I mean,

413
00:17:09.439 --> 00:17:10.959
how many years ago was that at this

414
00:17:10.959 --> 00:17:11.120
point?

415
00:17:11.120 --> 00:17:14.720
It's been a decade ago. And um you know

416
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.720
a lot of the people uh physicians,

417
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.798
hospital administrators, prosecutors,

418
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.160
we say we kept the band together. And we

419
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.400
have been working since that time to try

420
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.520
to get the system changed. And you know,

421
00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:32.960
we joke with each other, we like, well,

422
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.799
we've been an utter failure. We haven't

423
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.600
been able to. It's just us. Yeah. You

424
00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:39.520
know, and we can't compete with the big

425
00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:41.760
and the powerful. And we can't get the

426
00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:43.760
attention of the politicians. You know,

427
00:17:43.760 --> 00:17:46.160
I think politicians, they poll on things

428
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.440
and they know that people care about

429
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.280
certain things and then that's what you

430
00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:53.679
hear in their stump speeches and a lot

431
00:17:53.679 --> 00:17:56.080
of people vote on those issues. But

432
00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:58.480
people need to be voting on patient

433
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.280
safety issues because there's a lot of

434
00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:04.080
things that politics is about these

435
00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:06.000
days, but most of those things aren't

436
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.640
going to kill you, right? This is really

437
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.400
important.

438
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.080
Wow.

439
00:18:12.080 --> 00:18:13.840
Well, I mean, I'm really looking forward

440
00:18:13.840 --> 00:18:16.960
to the podcast. I cannot wait to see the

441
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.160
different episodes that you're going to

442
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.160
have, you know, talking about Dr. Death

443
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.799
and having everybody, you know, I I hope

444
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.640
that you're going to take questions from

445
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.400
people that are watching and listening.

446
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.720
Is that something you're going to do?

447
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.880
I really want this to be interactive and

448
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:32.240
we're going to have a way for people to

449
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.840
contact us um to ask us what do they

450
00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:38.080
want to know because you know as they

451
00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:41.919
always say a the thing a lawyer loves to

452
00:18:41.919 --> 00:18:43.679
hear the most is the sound of their own

453
00:18:43.679 --> 00:18:45.280
voice

454
00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:47.440
and so I don't want this to be me

455
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:49.600
listening to the sound of my own voice.

456
00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:52.480
I want to hear from people and I hope

457
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.720
that they will engage.

458
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.000
Well, I already have a whole bunch of

459
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:56.480
questions so

460
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.640
Oh, good. we'll be ready to go. So,

461
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:00.160
well, I'm looking forward to the podcast

462
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.080
and uh you know, I really hope that, you

463
00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:05.760
know, it really touches as many people

464
00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:07.280
as possible because I do think this is

465
00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:08.320
important.

466
00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:10.559
We need to have education so that when

467
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.160
we're at the hospital or we're at the

468
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.600
doctor that we can advocate before

469
00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:15.520
something happens.

470
00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:18.480
It's not the patient's responsibility to

471
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.480
have to be aware of the preventable

472
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.360
medical mistakes that can harm them, but

473
00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:29.120
having the knowledge um can empower a

474
00:19:29.120 --> 00:19:31.919
patient. You know, the problem is, and

475
00:19:31.919 --> 00:19:33.600
I'm going to be kind of a Debbie Downer

476
00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:35.919
about some of these things, there are a

477
00:19:35.919 --> 00:19:38.480
lot of things that no matter how hard

478
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.600
the patient tries or what all they do,

479
00:19:41.600 --> 00:19:44.480
the system is set up where there's no

480
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.320
transparency.

481
00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:50.559
And so, um, at least we'll know what the

482
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.919
limits are. Perfect. Thank you so much

483
00:19:53.919 --> 00:19:56.320
for joining me on this first episode of

484
00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.160
Advocate, holding healthcare

485
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.320
accountable. I hope you found it helpful

486
00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:02.799
and inspiring. Remember, this fight

487
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.600
isn't just mine, it's ours. Together, we

488
00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:08.480
can demand better, safer care for

489
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.960
ourselves and our loved ones. If you

490
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:12.799
have any questions or topics you'd like

491
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.200
for me to cover in an upcoming episode,

492
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.440
I'd love to hear from you. Send me your

493
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.640
thoughts and let's keep this

494
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.880
conversation going. If you enjoyed

495
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.039
today's episode, please subscribe and

496
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:24.880
leave us a review wherever you listen to

497
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.280
podcasts. Until next time, take care of

498
00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:30.320
yourself, stay informed, and never stop

499
00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:32.720
advocating for what's right.

500
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.000
Thank you so much for listening, and

501
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.120
thank you so much for having me. I'm

502
00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:36.400
looking forward to the podcast.

503
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.120
Thank you so much, Kaylee.

504
00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:44.429
[Music]